Sunday, June 14, 2015

You don't want it to be mainstream?

Today I saw someone saying they don't want a character they like to get popular. 

....What? It's not the first time I've seen someone say this but it still doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't you want your favorite character(s) to get more mainstream? Popularity equals more exposure both in and out of comics. I mean I guess I could understand if the concern was potentially bad stories and characterzations from writers that don't get the character. But not the idea itself of getting more attention for your favorites,


  1. Not counting the people who's just being sarcastic, there are some people that kind of dread what kind of fans would attract the character/product/media if suddenly explodes on popularity. A petty idea for sure but somewhat understandable, I've seen many fandoms that become unpleasant when get sudden exposure.

    A more absurd reasoning is when people fear to lose the "uniqueness" of liking something different.

  2. True although some fandoms already have unpleasantness. I suppose it depends on how it's dealt with since some newcomers don't have the same preconceived notions as long time fans.

    Yeah although the one I read was upset because the character was getting more merchandise. Maybe commercialism was what they were really against?

  3. That could be a factor. Over tumblr I've seen "fans" that have this weird idealized version of Jason and react poorly at anything that challenges that ideal.

  4. I've seen that too and it doesn't matter if their "idealized" version goes against canon. Some of them are downright offensive and reduce him to a thug or worse. There are some actual fans that get the character right and I've had nice conversations with. But there are some that get unpleasant.

  5. I know. People tends to get somewhat, zealous, when Jason is the subject of conversation. Tumblr is the worst, most people there doesn't seem able to understand Lobdell's talent at writing him and only spout insults.

  6. I will admit there were things I didn't agree with in Lobdells' interpretation like changing the tire stealing part of his origin. Because that showed Jasons' fearless nature and made Batman laugh at his spunk on the day his parents died.

    Most don't want to get past the first issue or want him to be just like Winicks' version and never develop further.

  7. Oh, Lobdell does have his faults and shortcomings as writer but he does like Jason as character and is willing to try new things with him. And so far, I'd say that Lobdell has had more hits than misses. Plus, I can't think of a writer whom I'd trust Jason with. The ones I liked (Soule and Taylor) have left DC.

    I've never understand that fixation with Winnick's version. It was good at the time but very one-note and Winnick kind of never could developed further -speaking of, I'd love to know Lobdell's version of the UtRH arc. Nostalgia, maybe? In any case, I find amusing that for all the criticisms, RHATO's version of Jason uniform is the most used on fanworks.

  8. The only things I can guess at people wanting from Winicks' version is the snark, Jason being a "bad guy" and a return to the depressed version of Jason. Although I have heard someone say Jason doesn't seem as skilled as he was when he fought Batman. Personally I get the get the impression Jason is holding back not that he's a less capable fighter.

    I don't think Winick had any idea what to do with Jason besides causing trouble for Bruce. He never developed him. I'm not sure what Lobdells' version is since that glimpse with Nightwing in #6 was written by someone else. Maybe it's basically the same but trimming out the fat of Infinite Crisis and other unneeded bits.

    So do I.

  9. That's a weird idea. If anything N52 is way better fighter than pre Flashpoint Jason due the All-Caste training. The "bad guy" is thrown around often but that gets old pretty fast.

    Winnick certainly wasn't expecting for Jason to stay. UtRH feels like a one time thing. So no wonder no one knew what to do with Jason after that. And far as I know, Lobdell plotted issue 6 and Williamson only did the dialogue.

  10. Maybe it's because Roy is smarter than he used to be and they think that overshadows Jason? I remember him doing a bunch of tricky things but Lobdell seems to use those moments for surprises rather than condense them all for one arc.

    According to Winick they all talked about Jason needing a firm direction if he was brought back to life. Which makes what they did from there even more insane. Because no one wrote him the same.

    There was a controversy a while back when someone found out Jasons' "degrees of love" speech from 6 was an actual quote that wasn't credited. Lobdell admitted he barely had anything to do with the issue but a basic plot as he was in a rush. He didn't even get a chance to read what Williamson did. So how much he planned (whether Dick was supposed to be there) is unclear.

  11. I'm not familiar with pre Flashpoint Roy but I love Lobdell's version. Him being a genius with a knack for turning anything into a weapon is very interesting.

    I think the only time they seemed to agree with a direction for Jason was during Countdown but we all know how that ended.

    Interesting, do you happen to have a link?

  12. Before Flashpoint Roy wasn't a genius. He was a normal guy that could aim anything as a weapon. Besides being a Titan and Green Arrows' sidekick his two greatest claims to fame were his former drug addiction and being a single dad. Despite the bad stuff that happened he was really was an amazing dad.

    I do like the new Roy though either would work well with Jason. Old Roy would be more like a big brother (there was a bigger age gap) and less clingy/silly.

    I recall them saying they wanted a love triangle with Donna being more supportive of Jason. Halfway in everyone started getting pissed at him for dumb reasons like Ryan Choi did when Jason pointed out they were wasting time. Then they gave the RR suit to Tim. Was there a direction?

    It might take awhile to find as I first learned of it from tumblr. I think the accusations started there (surprise) and someone later linked statements from Lobdell and Williamson. (Not sure if they were from their Twitter pages or not.) Williamson said he hadn't realized it was a quote, he heard it at an event and liked the sound of it.

    1. I couldn't find the tumblr bit but here's Williamsons' reply:

    2. To b frank I was never a fan of single dad Roy if only because I utterly despise Cheshire. She's just an horrible character: coward, treacherous, egotist...I guess I'm biased though.

      Countdown was building for Jason to finally move on from his revenge, becoming Red Robin and being reinstated into the Batfamily (remember that teaser poster with RR at the right of Bruce?) but then they backpedaled on the final issues and essentially retconned everything. I guess that since Morrison would use Damian as Robin, they needed a new persona for Drake and Jason got the short end of the stick.

      I was aware of the controversy but looking around it seems Lobdell did indeed plotted the issue and Williamson only did the dialogue. Then again, back then people was still pissed and were more than happy to say all was Williamson . Unless some one can ask either Lobdell or Williamson we won't know for sure.


    3. I never factored her into Roy being a good dad because everyone knew she wasn't right for Lian. Being with Jade was a mistake but Lian was the only good thing to come from it. That said I could at least see how Roy/Jade would have gotten together in the old world while Tynions' version made her downright scary in her obsession.

      I know that even the writers seemed unsure about this as characters acted as writers mouthpieces in their bias against Jason even before they changed directions. DC also denied plans changed at one point stating it was always the plan to make Tim RR...which isn't true.

      There was more from Lobdell but like I said it would take awhile to find but I do remember him saying he didn't have time. According to how Lobdell usually operates he has a basic outline for artists to draw. After he sees the art he writes the dialogue. I have no idea if he's more detailed than that with other writers.

      People tend to remember Lobdell had a part in it when they found something to blame. Actually the Williamson part is in the link where he admits he wrote the bit people were blaming Lobdell for.