Wednesday, November 11, 2015

Jeez I just looked online

At the reactions to RHA 6. Another controversy. So just to clarify my feelings on it.

SPOILERS AHEAD not just for this issue but a small one for a panel of Batman/Superman 26.

Jason blaming himself for his death. Unfortunately blaming Jason for his death and calling him the "bad/mean Robin" are still a thing at DC. I saw a panel of B/S #26 and Clark referred to Jason as the mean Robin. Tomasi had Bruce mention him as an afterthought as if he was the lesser of the Robins by saying "even Jason" did okay as Robin. Honestly I don't like it but I can chalk it up to Jason feeling raw and guilty after seeing Bruce. Maybe he meant it was his fault for lashing out at others?

Show sympathy for someone wearing Jokers' face and acting in his name. I could go either way on this one. From what I've seen most treat JD as nothing serious, she's a kid and he might think the Joker messed him up too. This probably would work better in the Arkham Knight world. But I think that if he was being nice to Harley instead there wouldn't be as many complaints. Jason only seems vaguely aware of what JD did anyway. I was expecting more of a reaction though so that's pretty disappointing.

Not getting her to take off the Jokers' face. Yeah that is messed up. Although it shouldn't be on her if it's the real deal since Joker got it back. And if he didn't then I think it's stitched into her skin. Either way she shouldn't have it on.

Jason feeling he shouldn't have attacked Bruce when he returned. Why is this a problem? He feels guilty for his actions especially after seeing a gentler version of Bruce. Whether he was right for doing that or not he's allowed to rethink his actions. Jason is trying to redeem himself and has shown regret for his actions before. He felt bad for what happened with Tim so why wouldn't he feel bad about fighting the guy that's like his father? That doesn't mean he was wrong for feeling betrayed or that Bruce was right.

Thinking Jokers' Daughter--who's wearing a murderers face--won't kill. I do think this story is too forced but it's more about him trying to make up for his own mistakes. He knows he's not seeing things clearly. I don't know what the point is if we're pretty much being told it's pointless since she won't change. He is acting a little too forgiving and putting them at risk.

Jason dismissing Roys' opinion. While I do have a problem with this especially since Roy raises valid points let's not forget what happened in this series. Roy hasn't even asked for Jasons' permission before he started their business, spend all their money and tested his inventions on Jason. Yes this is more dire but Roy's guilty of this too and has done it far more often.

Roy being against killing. Judging by the way it's mentioned I think it might be an editorial thing from the Titans Hunt people because that's not how he used to operate. Roy had no problem with Jason potentially killing the bad guys at the end of the issue.

Jason deciding not to kill anymore. Do you REALLY think this will last? Being the only bat that kills is in his name brand. We're practically told that JD is going to fail. She asks him to kill her when she does and he agrees. I'm sure it's only for a little while and it's not like we don't see him nonlethal when he works with the family.

Being told to read Titans Hunt to find out Roys' story. That is how tying plots into other series works. It's a 12 issue series so revealing it early in another title would defeat the purpose. I still think it will eventually tie in like Roy drinking since it was mentioned in this issue.


  1. Jason doesn't blames anyone but the Joker by his death. Here he's just talking about his actions during UTRH and how he was in the wrong by lashing out the way he did.

    The bit with Underbelly was foreshadowing this, Jason sees himself on anyone who has any connection with the Joker. Is obvious he feels that is the Joker influence what made them go off the rails and so, he's willing to give them a chance to go straight. He was on the same place and would be hypocrital of him to deny them the same chance he had after all.

    This is just the setup for the arc, I have no doubt JD will lose the mask eventually.

    As I mentioned before (and Lobdell acknowledges), the same could apply to Jason and Roy. We don't know how is gonna work out, but is only logical that Jason is giving her the same lenience he received from Bruce in the past.

    That wasn't Jason dismissing Roy's opinion as much as Jason being self aware about their own standing as heroes/vigilantes. In fact, the whole thing is wrapped on a layer of self awareness on Lobdell's part. The premise feels like Lobdell making a point of proving there aren't bad characters, just bad stories. He successfuly made Jason an important character on the DCU,

    Is too early to pass judgement on the boys trying to go no lethal. It does feel like the natural course of their characterizations though, it specially feels in line with B/S where Jason goes to the lethal option just to ensure the safety of the civilians they're protecting. Of course the whole thing could be meant to shut the criticism of Jason working with the Batfamily despite using lethal force.

  2. I can see that but it could have been worded a little differently.

    I don't think it made sense with Underbelly because 1) It wasn't the innocent man that died. If it was that would be a different story. 2) Their told repeatedly that Underbelly is a living idea that has nothing but bad qualities. Then suddenly both of them are okay with giving him a second chance?

    But to take on the responsibility of someone like JD is something he might not be equipped for. I would also expect it to be a little triggering since just a crowbar Damian found seemed to trigger his PTS.

    If she loses the mask I think it will just get a different style she'll still be JD. That's her character, she's supposed to be a mystery and obsessed with the Joker.

    Roy and Jason are different though. JD likes what she does they don't care for killing but see it as necessary. The boys want to help others and so far we've gotten nothing to indicate she wants to do the same. For all we know she didn't want to kill them because she enjoys mind games. Jason and Bruce also have a history and Bruce knows Jason can better himself. (RHATO #18) They know nothing about her except what she did.

    Roy has made desicions without Jason and Jason had pretty much made up his mind at this point. I agree that Lobdell has done a good job with Jason but I can't say the same for other writers. And I'm still not sold on the plot. I didn't hate the issue although much of it did feel rushed.

    If rumors are true I can't see Jason turning away from the lethal option. A lot of people wrote in to DC to get Jason a solo title which lead to his two series and they wanted an anti-hero. They wanted him to do what Bruce won't. I don't mind but I can't see that going away. At least not like this.

  3. Despite Jason having a perspective he lacked before, he's still letting his emotions to got the best of him. Offering a second chance to someone like Underbelly isn't supposed to be logical all the contrary in fact, it shows that Jason has a blind spot for people he feels identified with. Jason even admits it at the end of issue 6.

    What PTS? Jason has made peace with his past with the Joker since the end of DOTF. And seeing how Jason will handle JD is the whole point of the arc.

    Again, the idea of the arc is to redeem her. Meaning that she will either left the JD identity or reworking it into something different. Will it work? Only Lobdell and his editors know.

    That is the same argument people has done again and again about Jason both in real life and within the comics. Is a kind of a moot point anyways, Harley kills just because and she's this close to be considered a heroine these days. We'll have to see on upcoming issues how aware are the boys of JD's deeds.

    I still don't see it like an issue, In the worst of the cases they're just getting even on the "making a choice by miself" tally.

    A non lethal Jason makes easier his inclusion in any crossover they want, and non lethal is pretty much Jason's default for stories within the bat offices. "A lot of people" is very misleading. Jason's popularity hasn't been so high as it is now and while AK give him a boost is still pretty minor all things considered (AK: Genesis had a MASSIVE drop on sales from issue 1 to 2). People complaing about the current direction are just a very vocal group but far from being the majority of the fandom.

  4. I know he has a soft spot for those he relates to, he gave Suzie Su a chance which I felt made far more sense. She's an actual person while Underbelly wasn't. Jason still went about it differently as he was ready to shoot her--and did--if she didn't walk away. To have Jason AND Roy act like Gordon was wrong and offer a better way to a living embodiment of pure evil doesn't make sense.

    It may not have been as blunt as Batgirl made hers but Jason has showed PTS. In Lost Days he got flashbacks when he tried to kill Joker. He gets flashbacks in Batman and Robin when Damian leaves the crowbar then hits him. Jason may be better but that kind of trauma doesn't just go away. It popped back up and gets triggered. You can't control it as it creeps in at the worse time.

    If she's redeemed then that gets rid of the mystery of who she is and the point of the character. Not that I think the character is that well put together but these are the points all the writers who used her cling to. Changing that essentially makes her a new character. With people like Simon he already showed the potential to be redeemed when he couldn't understand why Roy was helping Kori. He came off as misguided while JD just seems to love her work.

    What that Jason can't be redeemed? He's shown strong potential for a long time and is trying to do better. Depends on who writes Harley, she's also killed innocent people for petty reasons beyond their control.

    On Jason making a choice without Roys' say so? Yeah, that's what I meant.

    "A lot of people" as Didio claims they got the highest demand they ever got (at least in recent years) for his solo. The rumors are that he'll be in the movies and if that's true he'll get more attention.

  5. I went back to check and Roy is put off by Gordon's overall attitude and prone to violence rather than the inmediat rejection at Jason's offering of peace.

    Lost Days isn't canon for the N52 so isn't a valid example. During the sequence between him and Damian, Jason only shows suprise but not really has a distinct change on his behavior during the fight. If anything, he's incredibly composed despite Damian trying to push his buttons. Is only until the moment that Damian starts cheating that Jason actually gets upset. the only other moment that could be used as example is the B&RH issue but again, it comes off more like Jason being hurt at Bruce using him than an actual reaction to the site. Another important thing to consider is that these has happened just under Tomasi's pen and has never referenced by other writers, that paired with the way Jason so casually mentions his death under Lobdell, puts its canonicity into question.

    JD has lacked a solid direction and so far she doesn't has anything that appeals to the readers (the recent Detective Comics where she showed was basically a huge "the reason you sucks" to her) so I don't see why is an issue to take this chance to reinvent her.

    Simon being redeemed was a happy accident and no something Jason planned for.

    Unless I missed something, that statement is from four years ago when RHATO was created, not something that he has said recently.

  6. I don't have the issue around I just remembered Roy thinking Gordon was going overboard despite the fact they were there to kill Underbelly. I don't think he argued against Jasons' idea.

    I know Lost Days isn't canon because the All Caste replaced it. I just used it as an example of times Jason has shown to have PTS. Gleason showed imagines of Jason getting beaten up by the Joker while Damian attacked. He was stunned. Sure he shakes it off but why show the brutal beating at all if not to convey how much it affects Jason? He's visibly upset by it's presence. Damian knew he would be and used it to gain the upper hand.

    Jason wasn't even giving it his all partly because he was fighting a 10 year old and trying not to lose his temper. That doesn't mean he wasn't affected. Bruce took Jason there to try to trigger him. It got an emotion response from him but we never got to see the extent. Of course Tomasi later shrugged it off to act like DOTF was worse. Despite the fact Jason had already forgiven Bruce for that screw up while his death site was the worse offense. I think that's more to do with Tomasi not being good at follow ups rather than Jason not caring.

    Jason never gets in depth about his death under Lobdell, not with other characters. We hear some of his thoughts but we have gotten small details. Secrets Origins revealed that Talia and Jason both got freaked out over him although Jason visibly looked calm. FE tie in hinted at him not wanting to be back and dragged from the afterlife.

    We've never seen him talk openingly with anyone except Xiao about his death. When he did he admitted it was hard to start over. Just because he acts okay on the surface doesn't mean he's fine. Jason often tries to hide vulnerabilities especially if no one else would get them. The only other person he could talk to is Damian and no one seems interested in telling that story.

    I'm just not seeing why anyone would want to reinvent her. Yes she hasn't been written well but consider the character she was based on. Duela Dent was mostly on the side of angels, a Titan and had mental problems. No one knew what to do with her. The character kept having writers change her to the point no one wanted to use her then Countdown happened.

    I know I meant Lobdell planted the seeds in his script from the first time they fought Simon. Anything in this issue is just Jason seeing something no one else does.

    Yes it is because that was what I was talking about with what people initially wanted with his series. I was talking about why and how long people want Jason to remain an anti-hero. In other words besides wanting Jason to get a series people wanted him to keep killing bad guys. You mentioned "a lot of" and I clarified what Didio stated. I don't think that desire has changed no matter what's currently popular. I read lots of reviews for the Arkham Knight series didn't care for Tomasi writing Jason for example. That doesn't mean anyone change their stance on him killing. In fact I haven't seen anyone outside those that don't want him on the family protest the killing.